Okay, so Diana Hsieh of Noodlefood fame has this really cool offer up on her blog. Basically, she wants some paying to do a podcast on finding romantic prospects. (Everyone please go and pledge cause you know it will be good and I want to hear it.) Aside from being a nice business idea, I am really interested in what she has to say. I even pledged a little bit of cash so I could see it, even though I am happily coupled. I'm interested partly I love all psychology, romance, and people talk, partly cause almost everything Diana writes or podcasts about is interesting to me, and partly because I don't understand why so many Oists find it so hard to get either a significant other or at least some play.
Since her offer went up, I have been thinking about finding romantic partners, about friends who have had real trouble with this, and about my own experiences. I have never had any trouble finding people to date, screw, love, etc, and I am not sure why my experiences are so different from other peoples'.
So full disclosure: I am not especially pretty and am usually at least a little bit overweight. I am not rich or likely ever to be unless I marry me a sugar daddy. I am a lot of fun, but I can be a real bitch. Being close to me is kind of a roller coaster ride of highs and lows. I am smarter than your average bear, but also kind of a know-it-all. I tell you all these things so that it is clear that I am not the super hot, successful, Dagny kind of girl or that super sweet nice girl that men are supposed to want to marry.
And yet, my life has been filled up to the brim with romance. Since my first rocking great boyfriend at age 16, I have had a string of fabulous men and women, some amazing lovers, some short-term quick burn-out romances, and a few deep and meaningful long term relationships. My heart has been broken a few times, but even those unrequited loves had the kind of emotinal value I can't regret and wouldn't undo.
So, why have I had such good luck, if it is luck? I'm not really sure. I'm going to name the things I do differently in pursuing relationships than most people I know, but I'm not writing the list as advice. Some of the things may just be things about me that would not work well for everyone. Some may not even be good things. This is just an exploratory list.
1. I am frank to a fault, and I tend to just tell people what I am thinking and feeling. "Wow, I really like you a lot." and "Wanna go home with me?" are hard to put out there if you are thinking ahead about what they answer is likely to be. But if you just hear them coming out of your mouth before you can contemplate the possibility of rejection, it's not too hard. :) And they often get good results. Of course, some people don't want to hear your real feelings, but those people hurt my feelings a little and then move out of my life. The ones who like frankness stay put and are the kind who will enjoy me in the long run. And rejection hurts, but not for that long.
2. I like what I can get. I don't know if it is a coincidence or if I have automatized it, but I don't pine after people whose qualities put them out of my league. I can be very attracted to a guy who isn't super good looking. I don't need lots of wealth or super intelligence or a perfect body. Which is a good thing cause I am not that perfect myself. I probably couldn't get Brad Pitt with the brains of Einstein and the money of Buffet. So, whether I have learned to like the kind of guys I can pull or whether it's just a fluke that I don't need those qualities, it serves to make me happy, I think. Achievable goals and all that.
3. I have not always been on the search for my one true love and soul-mate. First, I think all that soul-mate jazz is a bunch of malarkey, and second, I have stuff to do. I get busy living my life, and when an attractive person comes along, I leap. And I don't try to figure out if a person is a life long potential before I enjoy hanging out, hop into the sack, and get emotionally involved. It hurts when things don't work out, but it hurts more to never get to live that initially exciting part of relationships. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and sometimes waiting for the perfect relationship means passing up some really good ones and being alone.
4. I have a real big range of people I can like. I only get at all serious with Oists (because I gotta have that rationality, dude), but other than that, people in the world are neat-o in so many different ways, and sometimes I find out that I like things I ever thought I would have liked. I can be into people of different physical types, different personality types, different interests, different backgrounds. There are certain things that match well for me, but I don't stick too closely to my list. Lists are so limiting, if you don't veer off of them for a cool, but unexpected, person.
5. I don't worry about getting hurt. It happens and it sucks, but it's worth it. So much better for me to be the kind of person who leaps in, head first. Sometimes I whack my head on the bottom of the pool, but mostly I find really awesome deep pools. Yay metaphors that go too long.
6. I don't play games, though I wish I could. I have often wanted to be mysterious, be the femme fatal type, but I just don't think I have it in me. The guys who want that don't want me, and that's okay. There are plenty of folks who love openness and full disclosure. I don't totally agree with Darcy when he said, "Disguise of every sort is my abhorrence," but I do think that disguising oneself in relationships leads to partners who aren't right for us and to feelings of being psychologically invisible.
I'd love some feedback from my readers on this. Why is it hard for Oists to find romantic prospects? Why are so many that I know so lonely? What made it different for me? What has your experience been?
20 comments:
Most of my closest Oist friends are all happily coupled! Maybe it's because I am married and couples tend to hang out with other couples, I don't know. But I know at least two other tight knit Oist couples (which comprise a good chunk of my Oist friends) and so I wouldn't say necessarily that Oists have a hard time finding love.
Your other comments are interesting though - I definitely think the first step to finding romance is asking for it/going for it, which is what seems to have brought you so much success. That combined with the fact that you do not define romantic success as finding a lifelong soulmate, but rather define it as finding and enjoying one or more lovers/friends as the opportunities naturally arise.
Thanks for your comments, Alice. Quite a few of my friends here in Atlanta are happily coupled, but lots of friends in other places aren't. And I hear Oists bemoaning their romantic states on the internet a lot. Maybe all the happily coupled ones don't have time for the internet! :)
Thanks for the post Kelly. This is something I've been chewing on too (and have pledged for the romance podcast asking a related question). I like the idea of getting the most out of the relationships of those around you.
Great post, Kelly. All of this was somehow obvious within days of knowing you (oh yes, I remember the email ;) but it's great to see you spell things out so clearly.
This paragraph made me smile, because you're trying to say you're nothing special... and yet: "I am a lot of fun... Being close to me is kind of a roller coaster ride... I am smarter than your average bear..." Yes, I think these qualities work to your advantage!
Regarding your six points:
1) What a luxury! If only I had a vagina, then I too could get away with being so direct! Seriously, though, you make a great point and frankness is a major plus.
2) Here's an area where I need some serious work. Any tips on how to just be happy with what you have or can get when you know what else is possible?
3) Word.
4) They say people tend not to embrace the all-embracing. But fuck 'em, I like this quality and have it to a fault.
5) Courage (or recklessness, however you choose to see it) is as important as #1.
6) You mean we're not all psychologically invisible to each other?!
Not really sure what to tell you, Orin. I think being generally happy with what I have is part of my basic personality. I don't really try at it. I'll think on it some more, and maybe another reader will have some input. And no fair bringing up the past! :)
William, I'm glad you enjoyed the post. I am looking forward to what Diana has to say.
What a great post Kelly. Really, how many O-ists are #3-5. I kind of imagine O-ists pining after Howard Roark rather than seeing the (at least) one or two beautiful qualities in everyone who has a passion.
I fall in love with guys who are good at what they do ALL the time, and I've never been asked out more than I have in the past two years. I am, however, very married and intend to stay that way.
Don't be critical, don't be too choosy; realize that everyone brings something to the table. Enjoy the moment, the person, the witty conversation. It's part of living a beautiful life, and may lead to some fantastic, deep, long-lasting relationships.
And MOST importantly, people are not projects. Buildings, railroads, books, theses; those are projects.
I can't contribute much advice to finding romantic prospects, as I'm married to my high school sweetheart, but I really enjoyed the post. Since I know you personally, I can tell you that one of the most attractive things about you is that you know yourself so well, and have a confidence that is very refreshing.
You don't put as much pressure on yourself as some people that are looking for romance. You aren't over-thinking what is happening or going to happen, which makes it a lot easier to make a connection. I have a couple of single friends that are looking for THE ONE, and I think they miss out on opportunities for romance or relationships.
Kelly-
Great post! You've long had a lot of the qualities that fit this. I've come more from the typical Objectivist-male-who-can-never-get-play though, so can probably relate more specifically to your target audience. Additional specifics-
- Lose the pedestal. As Kelly said, there's no soulmate, and you're missing out on a lot of fun and possibly great relationships trying to set an unrealistically high bar. Stop looking for Dagny - she's fictional!
- If applicable (and for most of us it is) revisit your Christian upbringing and its baggage. Clean out the remnants of the idea that sex is dirty or only for marriage or your soulmate (see above). This is easier said than done, but pay attention to what you're thinking to sort out when you might be rationalizing old Xian ideals into a pseudo-Oist framework.
Orin-
Dude, you don't need any help on #1 and have like a legendary list for your dating! ;)
For #2.. I guess life feels so full with other values and priorities and the backdrop of the happy relationship that searching around doesn't have an appeal. Sure the 'black magic' diminishes significantly, but I think if the white magic is still justified, the general drive for variety won't be a major factor. Real dissatisfaction, a la some 9 year relationship with a pagan who shall not be named, could be a different matter.
I enjoyed your post, Kelly! You are so refreshing and authentic. As a few of the comments noted, I wonder if many Objectivists try to find their Dagny or Roark and never accept the rest of us. I am married, but not to an Objectivist. I think it's important for us to remember that Ayn Rand married Frank, someone who, from most accounts, was not John Galt. She was perfectly content for many decades with him.
I think all the qualities you mentioned about yourself are so important to finding a partner: confidence, intelligence, ability to have fun, honesty, courage, realistic expectations of yourself and others (e.g., not searching for perfection), and a sense of humor (you didn't mention that, but I think it came across in your post).
Most of the middle-aged adults I know, Objectivist or not, who are not in relationships and want to be, are lacking in most of the above qualities (maybe with the exception of intelligence).
I also look forward to hearing what Diane has to say about it!
I so loved the candor and contemplation in this post! As my kiddo would say, "jiffy thinking" :) While our vibrant group has many couples, there are many singles too and they tend to have a hard time finding a long-term someone which, I think, speaks to that being an Objectivist (eventually) requirement. I haven't seen many problems with finding someone for even six months, it's that long term philosophical mis-match which can be the problem. On a positive note, I think the pool is improving! I just finished grading another several hundred essays for ARI and the change this year is amazing. In the past I would have had a pile at the end of about 70% "no", 20% "maybe", and 10% "yes" essays. This year, the non-"yes" essays were split 50/50! (Several other local graders had the same experience.) So, many more kids are really getting the novels and that's exciting!
Haha, wow, you are a super awesome lady! Just had to let you know. Cheers!
Hi Kelly, I enjoyed your post! I still have a lot of thinking to do on the subject. I'm 26 and single. I'm happy, but I've had a couple of great relationships, and I know how much I'm missing. Love is my second biggest value after my work.
I think your qualities #1-6 are all good, but not necessarily enough. I basically have those qualities, but they get undermined by serious things that are not personality flaws. On a side note, not directed at anyone, generalizations like 'single Objectivsts are waiting for a perfect Dagny' are a little offensive, really.
Some real problems can be: Location, career, time, money, and age. Great people with a good approach to romance may still need a way to overcome obstacles in these areas. I do.
I'm in an industry (computer science and game development) with VERY few women. When I took a dance class in college, I was amazed at how nice it was to be surrounded by women; I had prospects just from a few hours a week there. Among the people I've worked with, it's M:F 20:1. This means that while working, I almost never even meet women.
Being young and ambitious, I happily invest all my time and money into my career, which leaves little time and opportunity for dating. It's a choice that reduces my chance to meet women. What I need for a solution is lower time/money barriers. Dating sites are a good start. (On the subject, OKCupid is by far the best, check it out.)
A man's pool of women willing to date him starts out tiny and increases with age. Very few women over 30 would consider dating me, 26. The same is not true for reversed genders. This is compounded by children, money, and career. All the 35 year old guys are stealing my 26 year old girls!
One thing I struggle with personally, that I'd really like to solve, is that I don't look for people in the right places. How can I expect to meet the kind of person I like, if I'm not hanging out where my kind of person will be?
I'm glad to read all the recent posts about this in the community...I'm all ears :)
Here's an issue I've thought about when it comes to dating non-Objectivists.
I'm not interested in teaching someone else to be an Objectivist. There's no guarantee a non-Objectivist will become an Objectivist, given the right amount of time and instruction. Diana's talked about this topic before.
I also have a lot of activities that build lasting value in my life. It seems like it would be irrational to give these up in order to pursue a relationship that might go nowhere. Now, I know a relationship with an Objectivist might go nowhere. But the odds are much worse for someone who is not an Objectivist.
So, isn't it most rational for me to at least date other Objectivists? It seems like I would be sacrificing a greater value to a lesser value if I pursued a relationship that had maybe a 1% chance of succeeding.
Victoria, what you said makes sense. For me, though, it's even clearer than that. A relationship with a non-Objectivist has a 0% chance of working because I require an explicit rational approach to life in a long term partner. And not just in the future some time, but now. So I don't enter into relationships with the potential for the long term unless the person is already at a level I can accept. I want to love someone for who they are right now, not for who they might sometime be.
I've only been in relationships with non-Objectivists. One ended pretty disastrously and the other amicably. The second guy was far more rational than the first, but still not an Objectivist.
The rub for me is being a gay Objectivist and living in Australia - which is a fantastic country to live in, don't get me wrong. My dating pool is already pretty limited being gay, which was one reason to move to Sydney years ago. Add to it being an Objectivist, which in Australia is fairly rare.
I don't harbour any illusions about 'finding my Hank', but I do struggle with this. The advice in this blog post makes a lot of sense, so I wonder if you can say a few words about how this might all be different for gay men, who are notoriously promiscuous (though I'm not), but who can also be very shallow.
I'm thinking about writing another short post talking about that and a few other ideas I have had from the comments. Definitely check back.
Very nice post Kelly.
I speak as a gay Objectivist who's found a lovely man who truly means the world to me.
I think one of the most important points to keep in mind is Ayn Rand's incredibly true insights that one falls in love primarily and immediately with another person's sense of life. It's only at a later stage that the more conceptual aspects of personality and character come into play.
It is much harder--almost impossible--to get someone else to change their essential sense of life and then fall in love with them. But it is much easier to fall in love with another person's sense of life and then work with them on changing their conceptual ideas.
That's what happened with me and my boyfriend.
Being gay is severely limiting in one's pool of possible romantic options.
Then being gay in India makes your odds ever poor.
Then being a gay Objectivist in India practically shuts the door on your romantic life.
Luckily for me, I happened to stumble upon my boyfriend accidentally online--not on some dating site.
When we met, I immediately identified with his sense of life and fell irretrievably attracted to it. He projected a wide-eyed sense of curiosity, an intellectualism that was both ambitious and yet nascent, a stance at life that was grandiose--almost melodramatic; he was full of laughter, brightness, and a lightness of being.
His conceptual ideas at the time were muddled--to put it politely. He was a mix of secular spiritualist, dabbling in new age mysticism, karmic theories, etc.
He was a sympathizer of PETA and an aspiring vegan.
Now, more than a year later, he is radically transformed. He has an insatiable thirst for intellectual exposure: he spends hours upon hours learning about new ideas. He is now a complete atheist and naturalist.
He rejects all kinds of mysticism.
He is highly sympathetic of Objectivism and accepts all its tenets from metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. He is yet to consolidate and integrate his views on capitalism, but is generally supportive of it and is confident of being anti-socialist and anti-communist.
Although he continues to be a vegetarian out of his personal empathy for animal suffering, he is fully opposed to PETA and affirms the exclusive rights of humans.
Anyway, I could go on and on praising him. But my essential point is that look around not for people spouting the right ideas; instead look for people with the right stance towards life--the right sense of life that matches your own. That's what you fall in love with, and that's what will help support the longevity of your relationship.
Thanks, Ergo, for your comments. I couldn't agree more. My primary goal is to seek out guys with a good sense of life and who are essentially rational. To insist that they be full on Objectivists is demanding the impossible in a way.
One upside of being in Australia is the whole activist mentality that you see in American gays is absent. There is a bit of AIDS activism and such, but the whole racket is mercifully non-existent.
I also live in an urban neighbourhood where the possibility of meeting men is greater, as opposed to some suburb on the outskirts of Sydney.
I realise my post came off somewhat negatively. I didn't intend it to sound hopeless. I think it's tough for everyone to find a good partner and maybe being gay makes it more challenging, but on the other hand in a big city, there are always lots of people to meet, befriend and date.
I do agree with you, Ergo, that the falling in love is done with someone's personality and sense of life. It certainly isn't enough for someone to have the right ideas.
But, for me, I have to have the right ideas. It sounds like your boyfriend has really come a long way, and I am very happy for both of you.
However, I need someone who is a deep and committed Objectivist. I'm not sure if this is because of my need to analyze and discuss every minute part of my life philosophically and psychologically. I'm not sure why I need this so much, but the good sense of life is not enough for me.
I do realize that I am in a wonderful position as a dater of Oists, a position that you guys aren't in; I am a bisexual woman looking for straight men primarily but maybe gay or bisexual women in a large city in America with a big Oist community. That's a lot of choices.
But, even if I were a gay Oist in central Africa, I am certain that if I were still essentially myself, I would need a committed Objectivist with a deep understanding of the philosophy.
I need to write a post about this, like I told Jason. I need to further clarify my thoughts on why I need an Oist and if I think other people should need that too. Thanks for commenting and starting me thinking so much about this.
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