In an aside, she writes:
"Jenn Casey and Kelly Elmore have a good podcast on temperament which you can listen to here. While I agree somewhat with their, and Positive Discipline’s, position on temperament, I do have differences. Jenn and Kelly mention persistence as a temperamental trait, meaning that some children are just born more persistent than others. I believe that some tendency towards persistence may be temperamental, but I don’t believe that it is a neutral character trait. It is a virtue, and like other virtues, it may come more easily to some than others, but either way, it must be something parents actively work to foster in their children.)"
First, thanks for the mention of our podcast! The one on temperament is one of our favorites. What she said got me thinking about persistence. If fact, instead of a nap with Livy, I ended up pondering. (Thanks a lot, Amy!) Here's what I came up with.
I disagree that persistence is a virtue. A virtue is an action that is always positive; virtues are universally applicable. For instance, there is never a time when being unjust will lead to good results. There is never a time to be irrational. Dishonesty can never produce a long term good.
Persistence, however, only leads to a good outcome when we apply it to certain tasks. While we should be rational in every situation, we should not always persist. If, for instance, I was in a job I disliked very much and I could afford to leave, it would be irrational to persist in that work. If I realize that I am too tired to complete a quality essay, it is not in my best interest to persist in writing it.
However, in a situation where the circumstance call for it, persistence is necessary to achieve long term values. If I encounter a tough spot in an essay, I should persist. If my job is difficult for a week or two but very meaningful to me, I should use my persistence to make it through the tough time.
I do think that some people have a natural tendency to persistence; I observe this is the kids I teach at the gym (some will do 500 cartwheels if that's what it takes to perfect it), Livy and Jenn's kids (Morgan seems to have a harder time letting go of a frustrating project than the others), and in myself and the other adults around me (I have to watch myself to make sure I am not quitting when the going gets tough, whereas Aaron has to make sure he does quit when something becomes futile.)
Like other temperamental traits, I think that each child has something to learn to manage their level of persistence. If a child is particularly persistent, she might have to learn how to take a break, how to tell the right kin of circumstances to apply persistence rationally, or how to switch gears when it's necessary because of outside influences. This child will probably overcome adversity and work hard to achieve values but might face problems with being a workaholic or not know how to budget their time to maintain more than one value at once.
If a child is not particularly persistent, she may need to learn how to push through discomfort to get to the accomplishment on the other side. But there is a bright side to this lower level of persistence too. She might be the kind of person who explores many different values and tastes a lot of the things life has to offer, and she will probably find it easy to leave bad situations. But she might need work on exploring one or two values very deeply, and she may need to learn not to jump ship too early.
Anyway, I think Amy is right that it is a parent's job to help children learn to navigate their temperaments. I hope that I give my persistent child the help she needs to let go and to apply her persistence rationally. And learning this stuff is a lifetime project. I am still learning the opposite: how to keep plugging away at something even when it's hard.
6 comments:
Since I think this may be my first comment on your blog, I'd like to say how much I enjoy not only it, but also your podcasts on parenting (and I'm not even a parent, nor do I plan to become one).
Regarding the nature of virtues, I don't think that it is a necessary condition of being a virtue that the means in question always achieve a rational value (i.e. that it be a "positive" action in all contexts); it might be (as with rationality) but it needn't be so. Some of the means/actions which are virtues when directed towards proper ends can be vices when directed towards improper ones. Humor, sincerity, loyalty and so on are all virtues when they are used as a means to achieve rational values. However, one can also use humor improperly, or be sincere about or loyal to the wrong values, in which case humor, sincerity and loyalty are not virtues. Thus, some means are only virtuous conditionally; others (e.g. rationality, justice) are unconditional virtues.
Here's Miss Rand making the point about humor: "Humor is not an unconditional virtue; its moral character depends on its object. To laugh at the contemptible, is a virtue; to laugh at the good, is a hideous vice. Too often, humor is used as the camouflage of moral cowardice." “Bootleg Romanticism,” The Romantic Manifesto (via http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/humor.html)
I think that persitence is a conditional virtue. When the value one is pursing is rational, it's a good thing to be persistent.
Hey, Susan. Thanks for commenting, and I am so glad that you enjoy my blog.
I see what you mean about virtue. I was speaking about the cardinal virtues, in the way that Objectivists usually use the word, and I assumed (perhaps, wrongly?) that Amy was talking about that too.
I don't think it is quite as simple as, "When the value one is pursing is rational, it's a good thing to be persistent," though. I think a person can keep going too long even on a rational value, instead of keeping all of their values in mind.
What a valuable conversation about persistence for me to come across right now! Thank you, Kelly.
Thanks for referencing my post, Kelly. I do think persistence is what I would call a "lesser" virtue. I haven't thought about "conditional" virtues as Susan mentions. I'll have to think about that.
I suppose I've never really known anybody who is persistent in the way you describe. I mean, my husband can lose track of things when he is writing and keep going and going to his own detriment - forgetting to eat or even go to the bathroom. In that case, he is indeed working towards a rational goal, so it's not a matter of persistence being conditional in that case, as you say. But I would take issue with calling that persistence. I don't know if that character trait has a name, but I call him the "absent-minded professor." It's more of a misplaced single-minded focus than a persistence thing.
When I use the term persistence, I mean dedication to continued action in pursuit of a goal, even when the going gets tough. So if my husband kept writing even when he had trouble finding the right words, that would be persistence. If he continued writing even when he was so tired it was getting him nowhere, that would be dropping context, not lack of persistence. If he gave up in the first scenario, that would be indolence. If he "gave up" in the second, that would be just a better recognition of the best path to his goal: he can't finish the writing without rest. So stopping to rest or whatever is necessary is not an indicator of any lack of persistence.
Does that make sense?
Ooops, I meant "...that would be dropping context, not persistence."
I had a thought earlier today about this, and I'll throw it out here without really having had a good think about it yet, so beware....
I think perhaps persistence-the-temperament-trait and persistence-the-skill are two different things. Everyone (or most people?) needs a certain degree of persistence-the-skill, toughing it out when faced with obstacles, because it's hard to imagine how you could pursue long-term rational values without a certain ability/recognition that sometimes you need to do yucky/boring/hard stuff in order to get to the good part.
Persistence-the-temperament-trait is maybe a little different--because my crazy persistent daughter does not always use the skill of persistence in good ways, as she is only five and still learning. But by nature she and my husband, who both fit the "absent-minded professor" stereotype, seem to have a level of patience with obstacles that is very high compared to my level of patience with obstacles. It doesn't seem to bother them how long something takes, if there is a problem, they will sit there all day and all night to solve it. Whereas I will tend to give the problem a good try, and then not want to feel frustrated and will often take a break.
What needs to be learned somewhere along the way to a successful life is the skill-of-persistence and if you are naturally an easily frustrated type, you're going to need to learn ways to cope and manage your feelings of frustration. If you are a less frustrated type, you'll have to learn how to stop and take a break and attend to other values.
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